Skill modifier changes

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Skill modifier changes

Postby DLinkOZ » Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:42 pm

Please leave your feedback here (god, I now feel like ND and their "nerf this" and "NO! Don't nerf that!!" threads) <--inside joke.

To recap, here are the numbers again:

Actions:

blow the cave in rock2 - 1 skill point
cap flag - 3 skill points

Weapons:

ac - 1
autorifle - 1.2
axe/crowbar - 1.8
dispenser - 2
caltrop - 2
detpack - 1.8
emp - 1.25
flame thrower - 1.6
spy grenade - 1.9
grenade launcher - 1.35
infection - 1.5
knife - 1.8
medikit - 1.85
mirv grenade - 1.25
nail grenade - 1.7
nail gun - 1.7
napal grenade - 1.7
normal grenade - 1.1
pipe bomb - 1.35
rail gun - 1.85
rocket - 1
sentry gun - 1
shotgun - 1.6
sniper rifle - 1
spanner - 2
supernails - 1.65
super shotgun - 1.15
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Skill modifier changes

Postby DLinkOZ » Thu Jan 17, 2002 3:48 pm

I'll leave my thoughts...

flag caps. I think it should be 5, at least. If you can cap the flag easily, then you're playing against, well, shitty defenders.

I think all weapons that must be used to wack someone should be 1.8, these include the crowbar, medikit, spanner, etc.

caltrop should be dropped to 1.5, if you kill someone with it, again you're playing against idiots.

spy gren dropped to 1.4 (please see caltrop for reason).

gren launcher should be 1.6, blue pipes are tough against a good opponent.

mirv... 1 even. dear god, it's just too easy.

napalm gren needs a drop even to an emp.


My reason for leaving rockets at 1? They are the base weapon in TF. They are the most useful, and most used. Even an average player can do well with them. For this, I say make rockets the baseline weapon, and all others shifted according to their increase in skill required to use over a rocket.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby RackDaddy » Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:06 pm

I agree with the bulk of this.. Melee weapons aren't all the same strength, though. A crowbar requires fewer hits than a spanner, and less time than a medkit.

And I still don't agree having MIRV/EMP gernades ranked the same as a rocket. A MIRV/EMP is generally a skill-less weapon that is either spammed or just tossed in the general vicinity of an enemy. It takes one MIRV/EMP to kill a person of any class (except HWGuy), so based on shear strength alone, it's far too easy to get kills from. Even a normal gernade which requires the same spam/toss skill awards less points than a MIRV/EMP; not to mention it's kill radius/power is considerably less.

In my opinion, the fact that a rocket is a "base weapon" is not reason enough for them to rated less than a gernade. Not only do rockets need to be aimed, it also means you're engaging an enemy, not just running into their base and dropping a couple of gernades. It takes four rockets to kill a soldier, and only one MIRV/EMP.

I think MIRV/EMP gernades need to be down to 1.0 as you say, and normal gernades need to be 1.2 as they require slightly more skill (less kill radius, less power..) If you're saying that running into a spy gernade is idiotic (I agree), so it running into a napalm (just as easy to see), and should be awarded similarily.

Rockets need to be higher than normal gernades and autorifile (1.2) and yet less than a shotgun and flame thrower (1.6). So I suggest 1.4 or 1.3 for rockets. Even a sentry gun which requires no skill is the same as the current value for a rocket. Killing someone with a rocket and everything that is involved (actual hand-to-hand sort of combat with moving, shooting, dodging) requires considerably more skill than a SG or a shot from a sniper rifle.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby [OESM]Rimuladas » Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:09 pm

Actions:

blow the tunnel on any map- 1.5 skill point
cap flag - 5 skill points

Weapons:


axe/crowbar - 2
detpack - 1
emp - 1.0
flame thrower - 1.9
spy grenade - 1.1
knife - 2.0
medikit - 1.85
mirv grenade - 1.0
nail grenade - 1.5
nail gun - 1.9
normal grenade - 1.3
pipe bomb - 1.80
rail gun - 2.00
rocket - 1.2
shotgun - 1.8
spanner - 2
supernails - 1.80


in my opinin i think these should be changed. Ive played every class and i just upped the # on weapons it hard to kill with due to lag or just lack of skill on the average player. Hence i think they should be worth a bit more pointage.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby RackDaddy » Thu Jan 17, 2002 5:13 pm

I completely agree with this (even if I think the rocket should be SLIGHTLY higher), except the knife shouldn't be a 2.0 being that it's lethal from the back. Granted, it takes a few hits from the front; so it should be down to about 1.7 IMO.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby Mr.Magoo » Thu Jan 17, 2002 6:02 pm

Looks good.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby DLinkOZ » Thu Jan 17, 2002 6:18 pm

Ok, I'll go with everything Rim has except:

detpack 1.2
emp 1.2
knife 1.4
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Skill modifier changes

Postby FeLiX » Thu Jan 17, 2002 6:50 pm

NERF THE NIX... it can still kill a premia with no problems. Also the ham sand needs more cheese. <--- more of a inside joke.

The EMP takes more skill then a MIRV. Just ask all the people I killed with em when they were least expecting it.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby RackDaddy » Thu Jan 17, 2002 7:41 pm

MIRVs take more skill than EMPs.. the first blast won't kill most classes, but the second will. If you run into a MIRV after the first blast, you're an idiot. EMPs also go through walls.

Neither require enough skill to make either higher than the other.. except maybe:

EMP 1.0
MIRV 1.1
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Skill modifier changes

Postby FeLiX » Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:03 pm

LMAO whatever HAHAHA I can get MIRV kills all day. That is the easiest one to use in game by far
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Skill modifier changes

Postby DLinkOZ » Thu Jan 17, 2002 8:10 pm

I didn't want this to turn into a heated debate. Just state your opinions and leave it please. Although rising tempers and such just put more into the inside joke.
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Skill modifier changes

Postby [OESM]Sephiroth » Thu Jan 17, 2002 9:59 pm

Sorry DLink, I *HAVE* to comment here.

OK kiddies, let's have a skill test!

1) Which one causes major lag to anybody on 128k or less? MIRV!! (Spam==lag kill)

2) Which one can you just drop and have go off for the next two minutes? MIRV!! (What skill is there in having a bomb that goes off once with the effect of a gren, then drops severalmore grens, all that go off with full force?)

3) Which one can be avoided (assuming you didn't see it ont he floor or wherever) so that you don't get gibbed by a single one? EMP!! (Drop your extra stuff and EMPs aren't as powerful, so they aren't god-grenades.)

Let's think here. MIRVs cause major lag, they go off as though a group of guys all tossed normal grens into a pile at the same time, and cannot have reduced damage. EMPs on the other hand cause no spikes, they go off once releasing a small ring of electro-magnetism, and if you're fighting a smart player, the damage can be severly reduced! What does this mean? It means EMPs take more skill to use than a MIRV. Just try taking on a cruise missile with a shotgun, that's like the MIRV vs EMP. Long live the skilled engineers who know their defense and know it well. As for HW's, I can't type what I think of them here.

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Skill modifier changes

Postby [OESM]DeckonFrost-AS- » Fri Jan 18, 2002 2:37 am

Rackdaddy, heed your own advice, I see your point, but that does not mean that your opinion is correct, I'm not saying my opinion is correct, but I've played all the classes (some extremely reluctantly) and have to say that the MIRV is an absolute skilless weapon, where as an EMP takes skill to use (properly). It does have the advantage of going through walls, which does take some skill out of using it, but all in all, I think a majority of people out there know how to beat an instant death with an emp...I mean, if you are a scout and are fully loaded with rockets, you DESERVE to die...I think many would agree with me on this...

Also keep in mind the CLASSES that use mirvs and EMP's...
The HWGuy, whos ungodly strong with his fatty cannon, and high AC
The demo man, who has a great (main) weapon, and decient armor...
These two classes have several advantages as is, add in the fact they have mirvs...hell it doesn't take much skill for a HWguy, or Demoman to survive long enough to throw a mirv...

The engineer on the other hand, doesn't have a good weapon (besides a STATIONARY sentry gun, and dispenser)...the rail gun is a pea shooter, so he relies on his shotty...and emp's...
and the emp's aren't very effective against experienced players...thus they take more skill...

this is my opinion, just so you know...and don't think me a communist for this view...

on a side note:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I must have a sign on me that says "I'm an asshole so give me a hard time, I like having heated debates". If you don't agree with what I say and have a comment to make, do everyone else a favor and email me privately.


I'm sorry, but is this not a forum, for users to post their ideas...I've seen you post your opinions on others frequently, hell I've seen you do it in this post...I don't have anything against you, I find it hillarious that you take me seriously now and again, but it is irritating that you seem to think you are the only one who has the right to post on other opinions, where as they don't seem to have the right to post on your opinions...

I am not a communist, I have a choice, and I chose to use it, but you sound just like the people who want to ban Hustler, abortion, Heavy metal, Neo-nazi propagada war games, etc...someone who wants to use free speech when it suits you...

it don't work that way...

and yes, I am in a bad mood... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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Skill modifier changes

Postby [OESM]Sephiroth » Fri Jan 18, 2002 3:09 am

OK, if you're playing on a server that has scouts, medics, or anything running to your base to get the flag without dropping their extra junk, you guys need to find a new server to play on, one like OESM's or my DMC server. I mean come on, a loaded scout/med running to the enemy base is like pinning a "Please snipe me!" sign on your back and sitting down on the bridge in 2fort. It is true that EMPs can go through walls and floors, but newbies and even most common players don't know how to time it properly to chunk one and have it explode right at the ceiling/wall where the enemy is. Oh, and I noticed you didn't say jack about the power of a MIRV versus an EMP, OR about the latency issues associated with MIRVs and the standard connections. Now normally I'd let loose here, but this is the public forum and I don't wanna' piss off the guy who runs this stuff since he's my friend. We can pick it up on my boards at dhta.org just as soon as Frost writes all the CGI and html for our site [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] !
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Skill modifier changes

Postby RackDaddy » Fri Jan 18, 2002 4:35 am

The opinions that you say I've posted about others were jokes, taken completely out of context. That issue is old, dead, and forgotten.

My recent comment of inviting people to email me was only a way of asking to please keep the threads in the forums for discussion that effects OESM services, and not opinions about why MY opinion is not like yours. I never said you couldn't have an opinion. As a matter of fact, that was the whole idea for my post. I simply was saying that if you want to flame me, go ahead, but do so with email and don't invite others to join in. (As you seemed to have done to get us this point.)

Whats frustrating about these forums (and this thread in particular) is this.. I voice my opinion. Someone posts an unintelligent post insulting my opinion.. "LMAO whatever HAHAHA I can get MIRV kills all day. That is the easiest one to use in game by far". I defend myself by saying that if you don't want to hear my opinion, you may want to consider Communism as this is a free country. Then you appear on the scene saying exactly what I'm saying (respect others opinions), and I'm a baby killer.

SUMMARY

1. I am allowed to post my opinion.
2. You are allowed to post your opinion.
3. If you don't like my opinion and you want to post an immature response, do so in email.
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